122271-dear-carbine-why-would-b2p-not-work
Content ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- If you want people to play without a subscription or a CREDD, let them deal with the consequences. None of us playing now deserve to have pay gates put in front of us. 15$ a month is obviously right now an acceptable rate for NCSoft and Carbine to provide us with everything developed with our investment and to give us the game as it currently is. The free players would be the ones not accounted for, let them account for themselves or suffer their own consequences for their frugality. That responsibility shouldn't rest on us to buy things that we've already paid what NCSoft says was enough for. | |} ---- Actually that is your opinion only. And imo it is not "FREAKING AMAZING". It is pretty close to f2p. How's GW2 doing? All their so called "monthly content" is skimpy and basically runs it course for a short time then removed completely. You can flat out buy gems from their cash strore to sell and craft your own legendary without having to do any work. If Carbine did that, they would still need to make money some how and so the end result will be similar to f2p. Content will come less frequently and when it does, it will be very skimpy. Let me ask you this. Why are you so against paying $15 a month for a game that with that sub fee you will get all the content, access to everything, no paying real money to unlock quests/content, etc. Please enlighten me on this. If $15 is really that much then maybe skip fast food 1-2 times a month. Or don't buy a soda 2 times a week. I never understood why people wants this and WoW to go f2p when doing that the quality of the game goes down by a lot. I have played most of the main stream mmos post WoW that went from a sub to f2p and the difference is huge. Worse thing to happen to mmo's. People I guess don't understand that making a game free means the company needs to make the money elsewhere and that focus becomes a cash shop, gated content, loot you can't receive/wear unless you unlock it with money, etc. | |} ---- F2P/B2P requests are simple. "I want everything I have now for no additional money, and I want cash shop fluff on top of it." Unless your game is build with F2P/B2P in mind, switching to that business model will only hurt it. | |} ---- It is usually because those people dont think about the consequences of their request. OR They do know the consequences of a game switching to F2P, but the cons would not affect them. Like for example quality in content going down. For someone who is only interested in leveling, leveling and even more leveling a lack of dungeons and raids would not affect them at all. It would affect a lot of other people who do like doing dungeons and raids yes. But is it really surprising that someone would ask for a change that only affects what they want and screw everybody else? | |} ---- ---- In my opinion, MMOs have only one chance to shine bright and grab its best number of players... Their release (lest you're WoW)! During the first year of a MMO life is the only time it has to prove, and it's also the time it will be judged in the gaming world (lest you're WoW). WildStar has already release, and it's golden year is nearly up, and thus its time to prove is finish, and players have judged it. Like most all MMOs, WildStar, will always have the chance to bring back some old players and even some new players during major content releases. However, WildStar will never be any more than what it is by the time it's first year is up. Other games that had suffer a bad first year would be SWTOR. We all know why SWTOR had no choice but to make the switch ... SWTOR is fairly lucky though because it has worked out pretty well for those guys. RIFT had to make the switch to after the first year of fail and look at their numbers. ESO has made the important choice to do make the switch even before they reach a year! Those guys are not stupid and ESO will probably catch up to SWTOR and leave them in the dust. I don't care if WildStar makes the switch or not, but far as being popular with a worthy amount of player base it is not. All of this I say are my opinions of course. | |} ---- As a matter of opinion, you're welcome to them. However, there's a big difference between a subscription game that makes its money directly from how many players play, and a F2P game that is, essentially a giant advertisement for their own shop. Having more population doesn't necessarily mean more money, and what you're maybe glossing over is how exactly they got that money. It's no lie, you can spend THOUSANDS on the SW:TOR casino, and people consider that a good deal to get some of the rare items they essentially have to roll RNG over and over to get. RNG didn't go over in this game for 15$ a month, I don't think the game would be improved by releasing all the new dyes and mounts as potential drops in a boom box and selling them for five bucks a pop. F2P (and to a lesser extend, B2P) are bad for us. The decision is simple, pay more or get less than you get from a subscription game. And we encourage them to predate on us with this model, outright asking NCSoft to please scam us for money or give us less. All to save less money over an entire month than I paid to order pizza and wings on Sunday night. That's what we're talking about. 15$ a month. If the problem is, "There aren't enough people playing the game," I always recommend the opposite of B2P. Kill the box price. Hell, they basically have; you can get the game for 20$ off Amazon with the first month free. If we assume the issue is financial and people aren't willing to even pay 20 dollars to try the game, B2P isn't going to work unless they REALLY gouge the people playing now. But, as I said, those burdens fall squarely on the free players and they leave us subscribers and CREDD users alone, never locking anything behind a pay wall for us, that theoretically answers all arguments. If 15$ a month per person is a fine sum, and the reason people won't play is they want a F2P option, then there it is. It institutes a ceiling where, if you subscribe, you get everything developed that month. The cosmetic items become yours if you're active, but if you buy in later, you can still buy them from the shop. Subscribed players don't need to spend hundreds of dollars to win, the free players have to catch up. Hell, they can throw up ad banners on the free players to recuperate maintenance costs. Why not? I'm not saying that there's no way people should be able to play without paying a subscription, I'm simply saying nobody should ever have to pay more than 15$ a month to get the full breadth of development. We're paid up, you've even stated it's too much to even consider paying for a game in your opinion. Why should any of us be expected to pay more than that when it's obviously our fair share now? | |} ---- ---- This will still require development by the web team, integration by the account services team, programming from the MTX platform team, and web QA. | |} ---- ---- People want B2P in the sense of "I never have to work for my game access." | |} ---- ---- ---- Here is the thing...the people asking for F2P? they want to avoid exactly what you are talking about too. They also want to avoid farming up Plat to buy CREDD, no matter how easy some people claim earning Plat is, those people do not want to do it. I wouldnt call it all laziness either, it might just be that their gameplay style doesnt allow them to farm up Plat and so they would have to go out of their way to earn Plat, possibly doing activities in game that they dont like or find fun. | |} ---- Well if they are looking for ways to make F2P doable in WS those are the kinds of things you could monetize. With WS as F2P a sub gets that housing plot automatically, an F2P has to pay real money to unlock the feature. And additionally they could do like in other games and allow you to earn in game currency but it would take a looooong time. | |} ---- Oh THOSE people ? The very same that ANYWAY would not buy from a cash shop ? That will make zone chat a HELL zone ? That will YOLO here and WTF there every two minutes ? Those people that will NEVER bring any revenue to Carbine ? That will complain all the time, that will TRASH the game at every opportunity ? Thanks but NO THANKS :angry: ! They don't want to pay anything, box price is too high, farming plats to buy CREDD is too hard = NO WILDSTAR for them ! Plain and simple. We'd ALL rather not have those people in game... | |} ---- Yah i *know* that most of them those kind of people, you dont need to tell me about it. People who claim that they want F2P because it is good for the game, will bring extra revenue, will make your male pattern baldness go away, will make babes want to hang around you. But all they really want is to be able to play the game for nothing without contributing anything of their own. | |} ---- I think I'll pass on the babies.... | |} ---- I think you'll find as long as subscribers and CREDD users aren't affected by any negative consequences nor have to spend more to buy more content, they won't care what the free playerbase has to deal with. Things they could feasibly use that I've brought up in the past include: -Adding ad banners and ads on menus for free players, not having them for subscribers and CREDD users. This has the added bonus of actually mitigating their presence to some degree by recuperating money on all free players if implemented. -Reducing XP, Reputation, Prestige, Renown, etc. gains for free players, and give them the option to purchase buffs to equalize them to the subscribers and CREDD users temporarily. -Opening a cash shop to sell decor, costume pieces, mounts, titles, Fabkits, essentially non-stat-driven items. As soon as they are released, they are given to subscribers and CREDD users for free as subscription rewards. Add all previous subscription rewards and item rewards (like the Piglet house) to the shop so even subscribers and CREDD users who weren't around to receive them can buy them. -Locking new features behind a B2P wall, making people pay by the drop for access to that drop and drops after. If you are subscribed or CREDD bound for the three months that drop took to develop, you get it free. -Locking certain features exclusively to CREDD and sub users, only allowing temporary access to free players. Let them "rent" a plot with real money, deny them access if they don't pay. Or force those free players to purchase keys to run dungeons, raids, and other instanced content. Subscribers and CREDD users, of course, wouldn't need these, they would have open access anywhere. -Locking levels from free players. Force them to unlock 20-40 and 40-50 individually with real money. There are a lot of ways to contain the F2P/B2P element of the game if people really want it added. That's the important part, though, not gouging the subscribers and CREDD users. We are, essentially, paid up for our portion. It is unfair to really ask us to pay more or get less game just so that other people can theoretically choose to get less game, especially since 15$ is fair and fine to develop the whole game per player right now. I have less of an issue with forcing the free players to get less game and to buy up to a subscriber or CREDD user's experience. They probably wouldn't need to do EVERYTHING that I just listed. Just enough to make subscribing seem like a really good deal. Then people could come in for free, see how much they could get for just a sub or a CREDD, and probably buy up. At least, then, if there actually ARE people who want to play that really can't afford a decent meal at Arby's, they would have an option. I'm not sure how many F2P players actually think 15$ is that expensive, but that makes it a very elongated free trial that encourages subscriptions. You'd find most current players would be okay with that system. At that point, if our experience isn't changing and the impetus of design remains the same (try to make money by the head count, not by the shopping mall), there's not much argument against it. Unfortunately, that's not usually how F2P and B2P are implemented. Those payment systems generally target current players and squeeze everyone for more money. So we're not saying it's not something that can be done; there are ways to do it that wouldn't anger the large majority of the subscriber base. We just haven't seen that done yet in another MMORPG, all F2P/B2P systems are, at their core, at least mildly predatory. | |} ---- hmm? ohh no that was the standard package deal for male Cassians that i listed. For Chua if the game goes F2P it is supposed to take your potbelly away, summon two hot aurin supermodels to serve as your arm candy, and you also get a free care package with some clothes. :P | |} ---- I have came across your posts a lot while cruising the forums. I think that you present some very well thought out points. However, I have to disagree with a F2P, B2P option. I have no logical standpoint for it just personal experience. I was in SWTOR before it went F2P. It just seemed that everything took a nose-dive from there. Yes there were more players but the content that was released was subpar and things that (IMO) should not have been behind a paywall...were behind a paywall. Rift appears to have done F2P well but I do not play it with any regularity to comment on its position. I personally feel that subscription based games work more for the player. I hope that Carbine/NcSoft is not at the F2P/ B2P point yet. Take the losses and monitor the game over the course of the next few months. Once you go F2P/B2P, there is no going back. | |} ---- I've personally always thought that the idea of buying titles with money is pretty goofy. The only one I would support would be "Hardcore with my credit card!" ;) | |} ---- ToR saved themselves yes, but it is extremely casual now and basically there for people who just want to play the class stories. They have (not sure if they still do) but from the beginning till f2p, they had 3 level of difficulties for their "Operations" aka raids. Right when they decided they were going f2p they decided to only have 2 difficulties instead on new ones and then down the road on "content patches" would make the 3rd difficulty as the big selling point for their content release. That is what f2p type games do. How is the last difficulty of a raid the big part of a content patch? That is complete poo. ToR in reality is one of the worst f2p systems out there. You can basically only level up and see the class stories but need to delete it if you want to see another. Sure you can unlock more characters byt paying real money. Rift I didn't get to max level so not sure what they offer, but I can tell a huge difference in the quality and content from when it was sub based to f2p. Back to ToR though, it is making money because of their cash shop. People spend so much money on these things that if it was only a sub based game they would get them for free along with a lot more quality content and in a more timely fashion. IMO people get so hung up on the word "free" for f2p that they don't see nor care about actual content. | |} ---- They do, and I in no way advocate actually going F2P or using that kind of option. However, my approach to speaking with people on the forums is to try to be constructive, and people are asking about F2P. That's why I made the proposal you quoted specifically. Those ideas are designed to make sure that the model is, essentially, still subscription-based, but there is an option to play for free whose repercussions are self-contained. That, I think, would be relatively fair; people who REALLY want a free option for less game could feasibly have less game, but it wouldn't rest on subscribed players to make up their shortfall. If F2P/B2P is installed, this is the only way I see myself sticking through it. In that case, I literally wouldn't notice it. I would still gain access to everything developed through my subscription, all subscribers and CREDD users would still enjoy the same level field without P2W, there is no stat gear or roulette on the cash shop as an alternative to a grind-gouge, essentially if they implement exactly what I said, none of us would notice except that people would have the option to play for free with significantly reduced gains. It's essentially why I didn't mind WoW being free to play to level 20. I ran into a few people on those accounts, and they were technically playing free, but it simply did not affect me in any way. Of course, those options I listed come with the caveat that I wholeheartedly agree that F2P is a predatory and ugly payment model reminiscent of scams that were run in the 90s in advertising. I wouldn't recommend anyone play for free, even using the system I listed, because 15$ is not a lot of money per month for a game that will last you for months or years. Subscription games are, essentially, paid on a per-player basis, so their impetus is to get as many people playing as possible. In F2P, the entire game is a sort of gimmick that sells stuff on the shops, which becomes the real impetus of design at that point. We get better design when the idea is to keep as many of us playing as they can, rather than just drawing us in with pretty lights and selling us stuff after the fact. Still, if people really want it, I feel obligated to at least provide ways it could be implemented without significantly affecting the game or its current support base. I'm in the same boat, but if they're giving it away free as a subscription reward and then it goes on a shop, I'm sure someone may buy it. If they followed my suggestions, I'd stay at that point. Since I stipulated that anything going on the cash shop would be given, free, to the actively subscribed or CREDD-using base at that time, and I'd be subbed, that's just free stuff to thank me for playing at that point. I won't argue with that. | |} ---- Don't get me wrong I understand your points. I think we are on the same page with F2P/B2P. I know that this MMO does not exist for our benefit but is designed to make money. If the current model is not producing, than NCSoft/Carbine can press the kill switch, weather the storm, or change the business model (to maximize revenue). I am not a financial analyst but I think that the Q1 earnings will decide (if it has not already been decided) if Wildstar will go F2P. On another note, I find it odd or disheartening how one month can change a game from extremely successful to what Wildstar is. I have seen it happen with SWTOR, GW2 (game never appealed to me), Neverwinter, and now Wildstar. The only game launch or relaunch I have experienced that went well was FFXIV ARR. I like the idea of Wildstar. I came to the game because I missed out on the WOW experience (I played at the end of Burning Crusade when a Paladin had to recast his Seals after ever Judgement) and I wanted to experience this difficult content from the start. I enjoyed it. Unfortunately the game was not ready for release and probably needed a couple more months to complete. Housing is great, there are a lot of ways to design your toon (costumes being one such example), and the difficulty setting of adventures and dungeons is fantastic, are all some of the things that Wildstar does well. Hopefully, NCSoft/Carbine bites the bullet gets PvP fixed (I think that PvP unlike PVE is always casual-friendly and is a great time sink for shorter play sessions), adds more content for casuals while keeping the hardcore nature of raids in place, and maximizes the overall gaming experience for the 45-60 gamer play session (which I feel is the most common). | |} ---- And we'll see how the game goes with the new free 10 day trial! Now we don't need to send out keys, we can just tell people to go to a page and click a link, they can try the game and see for themselves. This game's actual gameplay tends to trump all arguments. It's pretty fantastic! | |} ---- I know you & I will agree on this: Most of the things you mentioned would drive me right the hell away from an MMO, especially the ads thing. | |} ---- ---- Yeah, but if you're subscribed or on CREDD, none of this touches you (as I described). And if you're not subbed or on CREDD, you don't have a lot of room to complain; you can't look a gift horse in the mouth. To be fair, you wouldn't need all of these measures, but I feel confident that this answers the theoretical issue. If the real issue is that a person wants to play without paying and wants someone ELSE to be inconvenienced on his behalf, well, then may they be driven right the Hell away indeed. I'm in no way interested in supporting those people. But the argument is that people want to play for free, and wouldn't mind pay walls, having to buy buffs, having to buy cosmetic items. And so I counter that, yes, that would be fine - provided it's the people playing for free that would deal with pay walls, buying buffs, and buying cosmetic items. We're paid 15 dollars or had 20 dollars paid on our behalf, we've contributed. We're not responsible for paying to let people play free and shouldn't be asked to be accountable for a penny more than we're accounting for now. | |} ---- | |} ---- Yeah, don't say the developer should pay you to play the game. | |} ---- Give a survey on why people leave wildstar. I bet sub fee accounts for less than 1% of those who quit. Game is already buy to play anyway. I have almost 2 years of sub in credd and I don't farm, craft or do dailies. | |} ---- Maybe they should just make a new server (maybe they have one laying around somewhere) that is f2p OW-PVP and make everything cash shop. As in the f2pers have to pay for every Drop or they don't get to play it, put ad banners up, put all mounts on the cash shop unless you win it from a dungeon or from a boombox that you need to buy a key for...ect. That way subscribers don't have to deal with all the BS that comes with f2p. (not really serious I just think f2p sucks balls) | |} ---- This is where they are wrong. All content in this game gives you plat. Like going solo? Run ship hands. 30g a pop not counting sellable drops or do dailies for 3-4p a day. Like pvp? Do BGs and get bags that drop up to 5 modules (each mod sells for 30g instantly on the AH) or if luck get an amp or ability point which could sell for 3-5 months of sub time) Like pve? Run dungeons. Get modules from boss kills and partial patterns which sell anywhere from 7-15g Not even talking about farming or crafting which could net more plat quicker than the above mentioned ways. Anyway anyone who says this game is not buy to play, does not know what they are talking about | |} ---- Again, people want all of the content without any of the effort. | |} ---- Are you saying "People want all the content without playing the game"? Because by simply playing the game, you make enough plat to easily buy CREDD. (At todays current price anyway) | |} ---- If that's what I was saying, that's what I would have said. People want this game to be F2P/B2P so they can make one payment (or no payment) and never have to worry about game access ever again. They don't want to spend the money to keep playing, they don't want to get the plat to buy credd to keep playing, they just want the game for as little as they can possibly give (which is nothing, in the case of F2P). This game will live longer with a subscription. It will drive away more people with F2P and cash shops. | |} ---- First they start with this, then you gotta pay real money for bagslot unlocks, and then lockboxes. the game is already B2P. credd is cheap. | |} ---- ---- This so much! Please, for the love of WildStar. Do you really want a F2P kind of atmosphere around here? Just look at the SubReddit, where all people who were not convinced or were born toxic *cupcake* on everything WildStar is famous for. If that's the kind of game you guys want, I rather see it die, while having these pleasent memories.. | |} ---- Absolutely *cupcake*ing not. Stop being lazy and go farm. No pay to win crap like this. no. I personally have had it with Pay to win Schemes. Not after what happened with Prius online. Worked my ass off to get best in slot, worked hard to set those DEX and Ranged attack world records, and my world firsts, and upgrade items and try my hardest to only have some rich *cupcake* spend 12000$ in the cash shop to out gear me. *cupcake* never got my BiS socket celestial spheres though. He couldn't pay me 10 grand a pop to get those outta me. Pay to Win was one of the reasons I went to League of Legends and World of Warcraft in the first place. We can go F2P if it needs to happen, but NO PAY TO WIN. Absolutely not. | |} ---- This! A thousand times THIS! All of this! Watching how every single MMO's community that I've been a part of suddenly turns in a toxic cesspool when F2P is introduced is no coincidence. Sure you might get a few people who are actually invested, but what you overwhelmingly get are a massive influx of people that don't even care about the game. People who half-*cupcake* everything and refuse to learn. And worst of all people who fill all the most populated chats with cursing/flaming/racism/Other-forms-of-"Try Hard Edgyness". Because know that they have nothing to lose. Because the game is free. So being banned means next to nothing. | |} ---- ----